A discussion with Pavlos Pavlidis and Evi Karagiannidi from Voyage Visuel radio show
Your love for books, your experience and knowledge will help us discuss about photographic publications today, I shall say better to reflect on their future from the perspective of the photographer, but also of the reader.
The truth is that the photographer’s relationship with the medium of phtography leads, beyond the exhibition of photographs, to the publication of the photobook. From Anna Atkin’s blueprint book in 1843-1845, the publication of William Henry Fox Talbot “The Pencil of Nature” in 1844-1846, the refined and rare albums of carte-de-visite in the period 1860-1870, the publication of CameraWork in 1903, by Alfred Stieglitz to the present day, photographers, the photographic community and its readership, have as a reference point for photos, the publication.
After the exhibition of Robert Delphire, graphic designer, at the international photography festival Rencontres d’Arles in 2008, known to photographers from the publications of the Magnum agency, I began to notice the wide range of designs of photobooks, their expansion, but also the increase of their readership, either by small or large publishing houses, or by self-publishing. This increase in the publication of photobooks has obviously been assisted by the deluge of photos in the media, photo competitions, international photography and photobook festivals. Pavlos Pavlidis, as far as I know, you have been working in publishing for 30 years, and you have been working with different publishing houses and printing houses. Obviously, you have also noticed the development of photographic publications in recent years.
– Do you think that photobook publishing platforms have contributed to this growth? Is it considered necessary for photographers nowadays to quickly publish a book about their portfolio?
Surely the platforms have helped a lot, in the spread of mainly self-publishing. Certainly digital printing in general has contributed immensely in the production of small tirage books to be circulated more easily by photographers. Whether it is necessary for someone to quickly produce a book in order to use it as a portfolio, depends on the needs of each photographer and will be judged by the result. In my opinion, there must be a careful selection of the photographs chosen for a book. I believe there is no rule in this. Whether people will actually like a book or not, whether it is worth or not, will be seen along the way.
– Despite the increase in publishing, is your interest in reading the world through the eyes of a photographer still undiminished?
Yes, always. I always see and follow the photographers that are publishing, there are too many of them now, so you have to be more careful in what you see, you have to be more selective, to be able to distinguish what is worth from all that is in circulation and what is not, and based on that, you have to keep going, in general, as a photographer and as a graphic designer.
– All of us have some photobooks that define our gaze and some others that catch our attention. Which photobooks do you think have left their mark in the way they were designed? And which of them inspired your work?
Photographically, my first contacts with photographic books were two important books in the history of photography I believe, Robert Frank’s “The Americans” and Henri Cartier Bresson’s “The Decisive moment”. Especially “The Americans” is one of the books that as concept and as execution I believe determined the way I see that a book should be set up, from the photographic point of view. In my graphic design work, there is no particular book that has influenced me. When I set up photo albums, what I pay attention to is to highlight the photography; graphic design comes second, without wanting to degrade it. I do this because I believe that the emphasis should be given to the work of the photographer and not the graphic designer.
– We see that the design of the book entitled “Paradiso” by the Italian photographer Lorenzo Castore, published by European Publishers, has been influenced by the style and the structure of his photographs; he uses the black color on the sheet as the basis of design and there is a balance in the publication. With this book as an example, I wonder if thinking about how the general public is going to receive a book is also a challenge for its design. But the main question that comes to my mind, is whether the important factor that influences your interest in the design of the book is the photos or its subject? Your trigger is the book to remain in our memory because of an idea or a gimmick or because it addresses some of the most pressing issues and complex questions of our time?
In any case, the rhythm is given by the photographer. He is the one who decides what he wants to show in the photography. But we have to take a lot of technical issues into account when setting up a book. For example, when we want to put a picture in a sheet, we have to think whether the book is going to open entirely so that the photo can be read correctly. If the photo is not read correctly, because the book cannot open properly, its receiving by the public would not be proper. Therefore, all this needs to be taken into account when setting up the book.
– I would like to believe that there is not one model followed in the design of a photobook and in each book the bridge of connection, its axis, differs; sometimes the emphasis is on the subject of photography, sometimes on the photographic style, or on the graphic approach based on one rhythm. Of course, each publishing house has a specific graphic design approach and I would say that each publishing house is determined by a graphic character. Do you think, Paul, that the simple setup and rhythm are the key design features in Luminous Eye publications?
Yes, what I intend is to have a simplicity in the setup, because as I mentioned before, I don’t want the graphic design to dominate the photo. Yet, always in collaboration with the editor of the publication and the photographer I try to highlight the order and the rhythm that comes out in the setting up of the photography, I should say better of the photographic sequence and this is what I make sure to highlight through the design and setup of the book.
– Looking at Larry Clark’s book in 1983 entitled “Teenage Lust”, we find that it combines family snapshots, newspaper clippings, handwritten captions, a court document accusing him of assault, an autobiographical text and photographs. Do you believe that individual photographs can compose a book and arouse the reader’s interest, or does the photographer need (like Larry Clark) to substantiate his point of view with a complete thematic unit or even with a text between them?
I do not think there is a rule on this. If the photographer desires to use only photos or wants to include text or wants to put any other material inside, the ultimate goal is to convince the reader. The outcome must be something that will be able to “talk” to the world, it does not matter how this is done. The photographer is the one who will decide how he wants to show his work.
– So you don’t consider the text in the photobook necessary, even though writing is taught in visual discourse. Do you consider it, as I do, to be a self-contained expression of an authorial discourse that speaks directly to the reading public, don’t you?
Yes, speaking as a photographer, I don’t think it’s necessary. Speaking as a spectator of the other photographers, there are times when I need the text. In other words, I want a translation of what I see from the photographer himself, or I want a kind of explanation, without this meaning that it is necessary. As I said before, the photographer is the one who determines it and again he will be judged by the result. The reader is the one who will ultimately decide and judge whether there was indeed a reason to insert the text or not.
– On the occasion of everyday life and the ease of the use of media by photographers, with an idea of yours Paul, you created a publication and showed us how it works and what the photo from the mobile screen printed on the page means, in this special annual print publication entitled “Instagram 2020-2021” by Luminous Eye Publications. How did you come up with this idea?
The point is that social media and anything electronic prevails everywhere. Photography has been electronic for many years, at least 10-15 years. We see mostly in an electronic way and I have always loved this mixing of the previous way of expression with the new way of expression, so I decided to do that. And I find that very interesting. Somehow we see how “the old becomes new and the new becomes old.” This is a special concept on the perception of photographs. ‘This way we recognize how differently you see the same photo from your mobile phone and how you see the printed form. I find it very interesting and that is why I will try to do more of that.
– Paul, does the inspiration for the design of a photobook, or I should say the motivation, come from printed photos or because of your experience does the digital photo help you more in its composition than the printed photo?
It’s a combination. First I start digitally, that’s where I get the source material and I can deal with it and work with it. Then the printed photos help me a lot in the setting, as you see them with a different look. The fact that I come from an earlier time when we did everything non-digitally, helps me a little bit, but maybe it’s not necessary for me, it’s just an extra tool that helps me and I think that it’s worth doing that as well. It’s a combination of work, it is both, it’s all needed.
– Each photographer has different reasons to publish a book, sometimes because a thematic unit has reached its end or better, he believes that it has reached its end, sometimes to tell a story. From your experience Paul, does the photographer know any basic themes? As are the expectations for this book, which is the audience that will respond, if they have any knowledge of typography, if they recognize the design of the book and the pagination of the images, if they can recognize the rhythm of the narrative, the structure, whether they know the process of its printing, if they have knowledge and opinion about the paper that the book will be printed in, the binding, the copies, and do they have the time and money needed for its publication and distribution? That is, do they usually have a specific view on the design of the book? And if so, does this make your job and sales difficult or not?
In the first attempt of publication, the photographer is 99% ignorant, when it comes to the production, the setting up of the book and how it is printed and distributed. He may have some photographic knowledge, such as how to take a series of photos, or how to present a series of photos, but when we get to the point of printing −and I’m not just talking about the printing of a photobook but also the printing of an exhibition− his technical knowledge is minimal to negligible. I am surprised by this, especially when you ask them for some technical characteristics of the photo that they want to print and they do not know how to close a file properly. Their opinion about the book clearly exists, everyone has an opinion about their book and they are right to have one; it is a matter of character if he is going to accept the point of view of the graphic designer who is more experienced and knows a few things more about the production of the book. He has to be able to co-operate with them but if the client insists on some issues that can reach a dead end, they will be led to the production of a book that doesn’t have the interest that it might otherwise have.
– That is, here in the book entitled “Paradiso”, you mentioned earlier the binding of the book, which is a very important feature and how the double-page can work without spoiling the photo, but also about the printing of the book, that is, how the black does not leave finger stains.
All these are of technical nature, something that may not concern the photographer, but he should be aware of them and he should accept the suggestions that the graphic designer and the printer will make to him, in order to get a result satisfactory for both himself and his audience.
– There are books that have a strong graphic design and a strong photograph, but the result is that the book no longer functions as an object, because the book acts as an object. Do you want to tell us it is very basic and important, that there needs to be trust and acceptance towards the graphic designer who has all the knowledge? -and being a photographer at the same time, we have that joy here.
Yes, this is important. I’ve seen books, as you said, with very good graphic design, very good photography, when they both get combined together in the book, but at the end the book doesn’t work. That is, one of the two is exterminated at the expense of the other. I think it shouldn’t be like that; photography should dominate, because these are photographic albums, unless this view is so strong that there is a “message”, a way of writing of the photographer that basically does not function as a photographer, but as an artist and now he sees the book as a work of art. In this case, we go towards something else, not photographic, something visual. There we can do a lot, so that it opens from top to bottom, it opens right and left, there will be other cuts, we can do everything.
– There is also the Book Arts, a certain current that presents the book as an object of art as we see it for example in his books…
Personally, I consider it to be a visual expression, which includes not only photography but perhaps also painting, graphic design, and sculpture that could be seen even from the way the book opens. This is acceptable, but not purely photographic, it’s something else.
– From your experience, Paul, at Luminous Eye and not only, are the sales of the photobook in Greece a successful form of photography promotion? Is it still one of the most popular ways to appreciate modern photography and the photography market?
Yes that’s true, I think the book is probably the only way to promote and keep photography alive. The exhibitions in my opinion are over, that is, they do not offer anything to the photographer except for the duration of the exhibition. In a short time, the large imprints and exhibitions disappear, while the book will remain and exist in general. When it comes to Greece, I don’t see much movement in the book market, no books are bought, except for some people who deal with photography. The audience is limited to certain people who systematically buy books and some who buy books because they make collections. There is no movement in the book market. The digital printing of photobooks helps a lot, which allows us the small tirage and we are no longer obliged to print 500 and 1000 books, as this was the case, but we can make micro-publications of 30, 40, 50, 100 books which are economically feasible, circulate and sell out. In general, there is not much interest in buying books in Greece, while abroad the opposite is true. There is a tendency for the photobook to be bought, something which, I think, little by little will be adopted in Greece as well. It’s only a matter of time I think.
– It’s a matter of time and it’s also a matter of education obviously.
And a matter of education, clearly!
– Finally, is it safe to bet that many photographic publications will be on the shelves of our library and will not remain on the shelves of bookstores?
I would like to think so. At least, a large part of publications, the ones that are worth at least, will be on our shelves and will not be left on the shelves of bookstores.
– What are the publications that are worth?
The ones that have something to say and are seen by the audience with interest. Those that emerge de facto are seen, that is, along the way they will be seen.
– And it doesn’t matter if it’s self-published or not.
No, clearly! On the contrary, self-publishing can be more interesting, because it has more passion, they all have, but self-publishing is something more personal, it is something closer to the photographer and the graphic designer who works on it.
– Are small publications the ones you think are of interest?
I personally like more the small publications.
– The truth is that we still have a lot of work to do in the publishing of photobooks in Greece and certainly, a main reason we buy photobooks is because photography comes into our hands in a very direct, unique and unlimited way.
Paul, we are waiting to see the next books you are preparing in Luminous Eye Publications and not only. Thank you so much for being with us today at Voyage Visuel.
February 2022 Evi Karagiannidi
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